The upcoming Warhammer 40k Apocalypse is designed to allow you to play 5000+ point armies in epic scale battles with 28mm figures. Here’s a snippet from a promo email I recently received from Vagabond Games in New Zealand.
Apocalypse Rulebook + Baneblade for $250 (normally $285)
Apocalypse Rulebook + Apocalypse Templates for $130 (normally $145)There are also a number of boxed sets being released at the same time, including a squadron of 10 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, an Eldar Windrider Host and an entire Space Marine Battle Company!
The question I have is who do Games Workshop think is going to buy these kits? For example let’s take the ’squadron of 10 Leman Russ Battle Tanks’. Here in New Zealand a single Leman boxed set costs $55nz. So let’s be kind and say a single box of 10 will set you back $500nz locally. How many will need you need to field an Apocalypse sized Imperial Guard ‘Steel Legion’ Armored Company?
Based on the army lists from the venerable 6mm scale Epic 40k game armies are typically around 3000pts, with a a unit of 10 Leman Russ tanks costing 650 points. Judging from some of the promo shots for Apocalypse this vehicle count isn’t a bad estimate. I can count around thirty armored vehicles in that photo on the Imperial Guard side.
So let’s be kind again and say maybe you’ll need two boxes at $500nz each, and maybe another box of 10 x Basilisk Artillery tanks for support at another $500nz. That’s $1500nz for what will be quite a basic force in 40k Apocalypse. After all we haven’t included any HQ or Infantry support yet!
At those prices who’s going to play 40k Apocalypse? I’ll hazard a guess here and say almost nobody. Particularly when you consider GW’s target audience for 40k is roughly 16-24 year old men. How many of them have $1500nz plus to spend on toy soldiers in one hit? Then of course you’ll have to paint the things!
I’ve already mentioned Epic Armageddon which is a large scale 40k war game in it’s second edition from Specialist Games, an often neglected spin off from Games Workshop. Epic is a 6mm scale game and you can buy a 10 Leman Russ Battle Tank boxed set for 20GBP or roughly $55nz. So you could have the same army (in 6mm scale rather than 28mm) for a grand total of $165nz.
Then you could take that army and play Epic Armageddon (the rules are free to download btw) or if you really feel like it could spring for the 40k Apocalypse rulebook and play those rules instead using your reasonably priced and quite attractive 6mm tanks.
I honestly cannot see the point to 40k Apocalypse, why would anybody play it? Although I am quite curious to get a look at the rule set because I would not be at all surprised if it’s derived from Epic Armageddon!
I already have armies between 3000 and 4000 points. its taken many years to collect and partially paint (cept the orks).
I COULD play some apocalypse but personally no… its to big a game, takes to long and quite frankly unless you have imperial armour at you disposal it doesnt seem worth it…And even then it isnt worth it.
Personally I thing GW are smoking too much crack. They need to sober up and realise bigger ISNT better and they dont have to keep topping themselves.
Bring back Epic, It rocked so much I would gladly buy it again… so long as they change the pricing back so instead of getting one lowsey sprue you get half a dozen…
Pisses me off that I didnt buy more GW models when they were effective half the current price.
If only we could rally people against GW… enough to get them off what ever they are smoking
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the advertising, I doubt that many (if any) people out there can stump up that kind of money… I think perhaps its intended as a way to field all those Juicy Forgeworld kits that dont really fit in regular 40k games.
Maybe a way to get together with your mates and play massive battles rather than each person buying an army?
Still I think there will be a small market, just think if Battlefront released a 10,000 point army box Daniel would be on it!
As a forgeworld, Imperial armour release this would make sense. As mainstream studio GW though? Insane.
Yes, personally I think GW have finally ‘jumped the shark’ with 40k Apocalypse. Although I do think the product is quite aptly named!
Well, they seem to be gearing it towards long time players. I wouldn’t run out and buy $1000 of models to play. But having played for close to twenty years now, I can easily put that many points of Marines or Eldar on the table.
Actually after a little reflection I think what’s more likely to happen is that these boxes will probably sell quite well.
But it’ll be because gaming clubs and groups are combining monies to buy them and then splitting them apart to effectively get a bulk discount on figures and vehicles.
So whatever sales Apocalypse does net will be at the cost of loss of sales of individual 40k boxed sets…
Apocalypse the game also seems rather impractical to me, considering the vast amount of terrain and/or table space you’d need to play it effectively. The practicalities of figure movement will dictate the kinds of games you can play. You’ll either have to play along a very long front with a typical 6′ table width, or play a ‘defense in depth’ style game where you both have very deep fronts across a 6′ wide table.
I suspect the impracticality of such huge battles in 28mm scale is also one of the reasons 40k Epic in 6mm originally came into being.
“Still I think there will be a small market, just think if Battlefront released a 10,000 point army box Daniel would be on it!”
Hehe I could get 6.666 1500pt armies out of that, I never understood the allure of stuff you know is overpriced and will be invalidated in one or two years time.
I was thinking about getting back into SF miniatures but after seeing these absolutely ludicrous prices I’m afraid I’ll be making making paper and glue figures on bottletops and downloading some space crusade boards. 85 bucks for a single Dreadnought?!? 40 bucks plus for one 28mm special character?? 50 bucks for 5 miniatures!?! I thought I might be able to afford this hobby by now. NO BLOODY WAY!! Interesting to note that GWs share value has dropped 70% in 3 years.
Nick, it sounds like you’re talking NZ$ there? Yes, it’s ridiculous the money you’re expected to pay for GW figures, particularly with the NZ$ exchange rate being what it is.
To be honest I can’t recommend anybody get into 40k or WHFB these days, however there are plenty of good sci-fi skirmish level games out there that only require a handful of figures. One that looks quite interesting is Star Mogul by Alpha Forge Games which you can use with any generic sci-fi figures.
There’s also plenty of OTHER manufacturers out there with much more reasonable prices, like Pig Iron Productions and indeed Pig Iron have some nice looking killer robots that could be used for Star Mogul.
GW actually have a classic 40k skirmish game called Necromunda which is now FREE to download! Why not play that with a handful of figures?
In short I guess I’m trying to say if you want to play with sci-fi soldiers, don’t feel you have to buy GW! The independent market for both figures and rules is booming thanks to the Internet, which I’m sure has had an effect on GW’s share price…
Nick, you may also be interested in this post I made earlier this year, about Scrap Dragon, an Aussie discount GW reseller.
((Sorry if I’m digging up an older discussion. I just happened to notice this through Google))
One of the bigger downfalls of the Warhammer/Warhammer 40k hobby is the fact that these miniatures cost a lot, as well as the paints, tools, glue, and other assorted items you need to put an army together. As a new player (I just started playing and collecting Tau a few months ago), I can see why Warhammer 40k isn’t as popular as it should be. That’s actually the main reason why my other family members DO NOT play the game. Of course, this situation is primarily in the United States. I’m sure its a little different in Europe and Australia, since the game is A LOT more popular in those regions, but still, one must wonder if the financial advisors of GW are in it for the money, rather than customer service. Seriously, this game is going to die out in America if this sort of thing doesn’t change. If they want more people to BUY the stuff, just reduce to cost of it, but then again, you’d be getting into material cost for the plastic, labor for the people putting the stuff into boxes and whatnot.
Of course, with the economy being what it is, as well as the ever-increasing prices on gasoline, its no wonder the hobby is as expensive as it is.
I’ll wrap this up before it turns into a complete tangent though. Either way, you all have a really good point with what’s been said here and the main reason for complaints from ANY gamer that plays 40k, in my opinion, is the cost of a hobby.
But then again, its a hobby. You gotta be committed to it.
Hi Curon. Games Workshop is an interesting company. They’re moving steadily towards plastics for their miniatures and using various rapid design CAD systems we’ve discussed in the past to reduce their costs in terms of design and manufacturing.
And yet year after year their prices go up and the number of figures in each box steadily decline.
Having said that they do have some of the best multi-part plastic figures in the industry. I largely stopped playing 40k/WHFB though because I find their rules systems are secondary to simply selling you figures. Consequentially there’s much better tabletop games out there to play. In fact several of GW’s older skirmish level efforts are great games (Mordheim for WHFB and Necromunda for 40k) and only require 10-12 figures per side.
Oh, I totally agree with you there. I love some of the miniatures that they sell. I personally find it a lot of fun to put them together, paint them, etc, but the price does cut a little deep. Despite that, I’m (thus far) loving the game of 40K. I’ve only played a few Combat Patrol games and a single Kill Team game, but I like the rules set and the background info.
Its probably one of those “to each his/her own” things, but this is definately a game I don’t mind making a hobby. (if my ONLY hobby)
Wow, glad to see all this response. I’ve been living in Japan and I found out recently that Games Workshop had opened up for business in Tokyo and has been going OK for a year or so. Japan could be a great market for GW. There are SO many otaku SF lovers in the country. However, perhaps (do you think?) due to the price, my local store has only got about 10 competitive gamers. It has been a slow start. While I was talking with the friendly store manager one afternoon, the phone rang. It was head office. I have worked sales and I knew instantly what kind of crap ths poor guy was up against. The call started out as an enquiry from a seemingly interested customer. Then head office revealed themselves and the nature of the call was this: How many customers are in the store? What are they doing? Are you taking steps to recommend products that will enhance thier game and improve our margins? Try saying this…etc..You know we are behind the 8-ball.
Listen( well, read my thoughts in text), this guy looked rattled and he went white as a sheet. The call ended with “I’ll do my best…”, he hung up and I really felt for the guy. I did buy some stuff and just like the McDonalds people try to sell you fries, he was pushing for extra sales. “How about some spray paint, how about upgrading this figure to that…etc” GW want to survive and they want to please shareholders. Retail sales jobs are made that much more difficult with constant sales goals. But yo, Japan is the home of Tamiya and I can get 4 of thier paints for one of GWs. What would any sensible customer do in that situation? GW never seems to have a clearance sale or end of year sales bonanza, either. Bizzare. Japan is still in the fledgling stage of sales development. GW coud pull the pin on the whole Japanese chain when store leases end in March, who knows? Aggressive downsizing is well within thier right, after all.
I would love to see this hobby take off, I really really would, but if I was a manager I would make damn sure that there were 3 or 4 times a year when these products would get discounted so existing customers could get excited about coming back to the store and new customers could get started.
Comparitively, Japan seems to be the cheapest place to start collecting 40K anywhere in the world. I checked the Scrap Dragon link, thanks Stu, and at times it was as cheap or cheaper than here. I think they might be importing from Japan.
A battle force costs 50 british pounds and up to 150 or so US dollars in those respective countries, right? I am too scared to ask what my poor mates in Kiwiland pay. It is 11,300 yen here. That works out to be 10 pounds cheaper than the homeland of the game. Food for thought? Come teach English here!!
Nick, interesting comments about the price of GW models in Japan! It makes sense really though when you think of the staggering amount of competition for the Japanese hobbyist that GW have to go up against when entering that market.
You mention Tamiya of course, but there’s all those fantastic Mecha/Manga robots, figures and spaceships from various manufacturers not to mention that large market for character models from the seemingly infinite Anime shows.
Do Japanese people play a lot of war games? I was always under the impression modeling in Japan was predominantly of the display/diorama kind.
Games Workshop products as a hobby also tend to take up a fair amount of storage space (half of a double bay garage for me) for terrain etc. which one imagines is also an issue for war gamers living in Japan?
You got it Stu. They partly countered the problems of space here by changing ranges from inches to centimetres. Japanese tables have to fit inside shoebox size apartments, after all. I think a las cannon blast could probably shoot off the table and travel once around fantasy world before returning to pulverise your forces as a ghastly own goal attack. The upshot is that your shooty marines don’t have many moves to capitalise on before they get swarmed by hand to hand armies. Apocalypse is an unsustainable concept (gesturing at the end of the 2 and a half foot square table). Thus, the games I’ve seen have been 500-1000 point affairs.
War games in Japan remain virtually unknown. That is why I think a fresh idea like this, combining modelling and strategy, could be a MASSIVE hit. “Taro, see that Gundam model you made? He just SITS there? Well, these models MOVE AND SHOOT AND WIN OR DIE TRYIN!!! Koji, your Dragonquest 4 game is great but can you pull those characters off the screen? How about something more tangible?”
The Japanese are consumed with consuming. They are beginning to tire of thier Nintendo and playstation games. They are looking for something different. A new legion of rabid Japanese war gamers, buying battlesets in droves, could probably instigate a reasonable downturn in international prices! Bwah-ha-ha, I thought that was funny, too.
Anyway, a friendly(ho-ho, I kill me) gesture from GW is that you can copy the codexes for free off the Japanese website, saving the beginner a lot of money from the get go. Obviously, you have to understand Japanese to read anything but that just so happens to be one of my superpowers.
I am going to showcase the Battle of Macragge at school next week. I’ll let you know how well it goes!
Oh and when I (most likely) return to NZ next year, my new Dark Eldar force will be looking for some action !! I hope we can hook up!
Nick, another very interesting comment. I’m surprised they simply changed the scale to cm! Have any stats been adjusted to reflect the fact that vehicles and figures are effectively that much ‘larger’ on that table?
I find 500-1000pt battles aren’t too bad in 40k, you get a fairly quick game yet usually have enough figures to still have interesting time. Although of course it can unfairly penalise some of the races in 40k because codexes seem to be aimed at the 1500/2000pt range.
And free, down-loadable Codexes?! What the devil! I guess that does clarify my suspicions about GW’s rules systems just being an excuse for purchasing huge numbers of their figures…
Well, you know where to find me! We have a forum too where we (attempt) to organise regular games.
This has been an interesting discussion, but I fear you missed the main point about 40k Apocalypse. O.K. To sell figures and make money is the main point, but what I like about Apocalypse is that you can use your whole army in a game.
I have around 4000 points of Tyranids, and using the codex. There’s no way I can field my whole army in a game. But the chance to say screw the codex and field 4 HQs or 8 heavy units seems like it would be a lot of fun.
Apocalypse’s scenario is basically a cut-down less complex version of Epic’s main ‘meeting engagement’ scenario.
Epic is actually a good wargame, unlike Apocalypse, however. :-)
i need to m ake some cool warhammer 40k terrain if someone has a website that has lots of pics and steps to make some please leave your web address on this chat page thankyou… =)
Super, there’s a couple of websites I’d recommend for inspiration:
* Netterrain
* Terragenesis
* Terrain Thralls
You guys obviously haven’t even read the INTRODUCTION to the Apocalypse rules, which make quite clear the fact that the idea is to play ALL your models … not all of one army, but ALL. That’s the point of the game … to have massive battles. If you don’t have enough points in one army, so what?
I know newbies to the hobby won’t have 5000 points, and specialists who play only ONE army probably won’t, either. But I’ve been playing the game only six years or so and between my Space Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar I must have well over 8000 points. Surely people who’ve been playing longer than I have will have even more.